Bacardi 1920's

[feering pengborne]

trying to stay unbiast, when you have a product that works, sells, is popular, and is groundbreaking in its catagory.....if you have the money would you not try to replicate the product exactly for the rest of time it makes perfect bussiness sense.? and if you want to make a variant then do so but call it something else as this makes perfect bussiness sense as well, and the fact that Bacardi is still a family owned company and the largest selling rum in the world one would think they must have some pretty good bussiness sense?

[Evo-lution]

You could then argue that it makes perfect business sense to adapt your product to mass-consumer demand. That demand for the last 'x' years has been for a lighter tasting spirit, hence the reason Vodka has been the biggest selling spirit.

If you already had a light spirit it would make perfect business sense to make it lighter still.

I'm not suggesting that Bacardi have done this, but I do stand by my original point that I doubt it's the exact same rum now as it was in the 1920s. There are just too many factors involved to be honest.

[Hayds]

I said I wasn't going to post anymore on this subject for fear of Bacardi Ninjas attacking me in my sleep. Im sleeping with one eye open. Since writting my last post, I checked the bottle the 1920's Bacardi is 44.5% abv vs 37.5%abv todays Carta Blanca, a small difference, but a difference. I wonder how much the taste would have changed by changing the abv?
The other thing I found out about was the law! So in Britian 1915 laws stated that no rum could be sold that was under 3yrs old, this was then reduced to two years. Then in the 80's it was dropped to one year. So in ageing alone the taste profile would have varied around the world.

Hayds
ps, when did all the major brands start changing there ABVs? A.W when did Tanq make this change?

[thebarback]

I just read yesterday in the Sauce 'Drinks and Drinking' guide about Tanq, sure it was very recently so will check again when I get home and post it, unless AW beats me to it that is...

[rumandcokefloat]

Ive never heard about the age requirements for UK before Hayds, top research,more details please

Also surely there are rums below a year on market now, Ive always thought the mighty W&N OP is just off the still, add water(though not much) and bottle?

[angusw]

I could not for sure give you a definate date but late 90s if I remember right... and thats only really for the UK market tho both versions are still available in UK.

They also do a 40% in certain countries where over 40% is frowned upon (Canada and Thailand for sure)

aw

[thebartrainer]

Hayds,

A couple of points... to the best of my knowledge the Puerto Rican government regulations did nothing to change the bacardi process as they used the bacardi model as a basis for the law not the other way round.

The Bacardi yeast strain has not changed over the years. It has been maintained in its original form and the 'mother strain' is re-populated every 6 weeks by one of the Maestros who takes it round the three distilleries. The stocks at the distillery could last longer but the significance of the yeast mutating is so great that no risks are taken.

I don't get the ageing profile being different around the world comment... It is all produced to the same spec the only thing that changes in some countries is the ABV. I've never heard of UK minimum ageing legislation of any type and along with rumandcokefloat's comment about Wray & Nephew I'd also throw supermarket, cheapest on display type white rum into that mix. (although Wray is clearly in a different league altogether!!)

The 1909 commemorative bottle is coming out next week and I tried the liquid the other day... It is 44.5 as it would have been back then and, no surprises for me. tastes exactly the same but with a bit more heat from the extra 7%.

Cheers

Ian

[Mal]

Tell me more about the 1909 bottle Ian, Im intrigued......
But in the meantime, check out this link I found for a Bacardi aged for only 35 days........
http://www.spike.com/video/bacardi-5-weeks-old/2733915

[pt2020]

Being totally impartial, and offering only a little technical information to consider....

Anthocyanin, a glucoside derivative of fermented glucose and naturally occurring, is a common flavonoid in distilled spirits, especially those distilled from fruit based raw material or those which have undergone any amount of ageing.
Flavanoids are polyphenolic compounds, of which anthocyanin contributes very little in the way of flavour or colour but will lend a noticeable astringency to a liquid.

'stay awake at the back!!'

There is some documentary evidence to show that the effects of oxygen and light cause the levels of anthocyanin to decrease significantly, and in bottles where the 'headspace' is greater the effect is accelerated.

Even in bottles which are meticulously stored and maintained there will be a noticeable drop in the anthocyanin over time and therefore the astrigency, or perhaps 'dryness' of a liquid, the natural conclusion to draw would be that a liquid, especially in an opened container, would gradually become a little softer, fuller, perhaps sweeter, certainly less dry or spicy.

Don't know how that fits into the variety of speculations about Bacardi but it seems to bear out the concept that the older bottlings would be a bit richer shall we say....

Sorry to barbore you all with that but everyone should have a little organic chemistry in their lives from time to time.

Nick

[Evo-lution]

Cheers for that Nick. I've been reading quite a lot on a similar subject regarding the effects of ageing* (in a bottle), in this case to do with bitters and the old bottlings that have been found.

Simply put, there is very little chance that old bottlings taste the same now as they did when they were first bottled...

*Which shouldn't be confused with the ageing of spirits in barrels. What we're talking about here is ageing due to time which leads to changes in flavour because of exposure to the elements (oxygen, sunlight, etc.)

[KikiD]

Sorry to barbore you all with that but everyone should have a little organic chemistry in their lives from time to time.

Nick

Thats the whole point of the site, Nick! Am now feeling more informed than ever! It's such a valid point as in my retail days, we often told customers that the whisky didn't age once it went into bottle. Of course, the whisky does age, but just not in the same way as in barrel (as Adam mentions too). What would be good to find out is how long it would take for a bottle on a shelf to deteriorate? Obviously, you don't expect Bacardi to be lasting forever on a shelf, in comparison to a malt whisky for example, but is there a shelf life of a bottle of spirits (determined by how the producers would want them to taste)? Two years / 10 years / 50 ???? Does it depend on the spirit? Would a white spirit deteriorate more quickly than a brown spirit? Or does it just depend on storage conditions like wine?

I have to say, having followed this thread since the beginning, I am fascinated by the whole discussion. I don't think that I would ever have learned so much about Bacardi if this had not appeared, so thank you all (esp Ian) for the debate. I did think that initially, as Ian thought, it was going to be a blasting of the big brand Bacardi and was ready and waiting to leap to it's defence, having suffered many times and defended Moet to the hilt for similar reasons (big brand, corporate identity etc) myself. But pleased to see that the debate has moved away from that angle. Ian, any chance of a taste of that 1909? Willing to trade you a nip for something from our side??
Kiki xx

[jonboy]

I know how to resolve this. All we're going to need is some Bacardi before it's cut to bottling strength, and some 80 year old distilled, demineralized water...

[angusw]

The 1909 is a Mexican distilled bottling at 44.5%. I have a few bottles via Schipol duty free and gave Quo Vadis one the other day as well as giving a bottle to the tasters at BAR (Pacult, Olsen and Frost).

[thebartrainer]

Thank - you pt2020...

Loving your work.

Cheers

Ian

PS. I don't know how much of the 1909 replica I am going to have but I will of course arrange some sort of gathering of those interested to try it. (you may need to be based in Edinburgh to appreciate that although I suspect I'll be carting it around the UK with me just in case).

[pt2020]

Thats the whole point of the site, Nick! Am now feeling more informed than ever!

Bear in mind I spend most of my days in the office with Reedo so I don't have a real outlet for my inner geek!!!

What would be good to find out is how long it would take for a bottle on a shelf to deteriorate? Obviously, you don't expect Bacardi to be lasting forever on a shelf, in comparison to a malt whisky for example, but is there a shelf life of a bottle of spirits (determined by how the producers would want them to taste)? Two years / 10 years / 50 ???? Does it depend on the spirit? Would a white spirit deteriorate more quickly than a brown spirit? Or does it just depend on storage conditions like wine?

Kiki xx

I think that there's probably no functionally useful answer to that. The reaction I referred to is only one of many, many, subtle and gradual changes that will happen to a liquid and it's components. Depending on the type of liquid and the levels of specific types of compound that go into it's make-up, then different stimulus will have a greater or lesser effect. Everything from storage, handling, light levels, type of light exposure, temperature and so on will have an effect - the significance of each will be different for any given product. and the result of each will be different - perhaps Bacardi takes on a smoother, mellow character as the anthocyanin levels drops, that might not be the case for A.N.Other product where exactly the same loss of astrignency might be ruinous for the flavour...

Although I spend a ludicrous amount of time researching the chemistry of alcohol I find the insolubility of the debate quite charming. I think that if we could ultimately catalogue and exactly define the characteristics and behaviours of great booze then we would lose a lot of the romance, debates, arguments, revelations and frustrations of the industry. Which would be a shame, but probably won't stop me trying.

Right, I'm off to tilt at some windmills.....

Nick