Bacardi 1920's

[rumandcokefloat]

I've obviously only the tiniest grasp of what the fuck your on about, but fascinating stuff, the Greeks truly are fountains of knowledge and the fathers of modern thought.

Nick there has gotta be a book in explaining all this stuff, with pictures and small words of course (Ben could help there), to people like me who are very interested but scared of the large unpronouncable words.

[Mal]

Isnt Wayne Curtis a guest speaker at the Merchant this weekend? maybe he could offer a bit more insight into the whole Remsberg claim.....

[JD Jones]

Hey fellas just caught up with the post been away in Moscow;

Ian and Hayds... do you guys want to bring a sample of your 1920's Bacardi and modern Bacardi down to the lab? We can run an analysis on both spirits and put the findings up for all to see...

The science will surely set this right.

Boom!

Kiwi

[drinkspinner]

As a brand manager on Bacardi I am wading into this debate a bit late in the day, but wanted to add to a couple of points.

Ian is absolutely right on his varous production points on Bacardi. I have visited the Puerto Rico distillery twice this year and have spent a lot of time with various different Maestros de Ron asking them as much as I can about how it is made. We still use the same yeast strain from Cuba and have never used anything developed by anyone else. We still use the same flavour profile of molasses as was first used in Cuba, and blend from different producers to achieve this today. We still age in American oak barrels and we still filter through a combination of different types of charcoal to harmonize the flavours and remove impurities. Aspects of the production process have changed over the years as technology has improved and we have been able to become more effcient (eg: with introduction of the column still), but we still blend the final product to the same flavour profile that Don Facundo originally set down, and there is a line of Maestros de Ron controlling the process that stretches right back to Don Facundo unbroken by changes in ownership. The principle of consistency was at the heart of Don Facundo's ambition for his rum, and it remains at the heart of the company today.

These are articles of faith for the company, and are ultimately impossible to prove. In this situation you make a judgment as to the integrity of the people who make the product and pass on the information to you. I have discussed all these points with Luis Planas, Joe Gomez and Jose Sanchez Gavito, all Maestros de Ron Bacardi, and they are all absolutely convincing.

I have nothing to add on the integrity of historical samples of bottled spirits, there has been some great (better informed) comment on that already, but I would say that I have tasted Hayden's sample (Hayden you may remember Alex Turner and I relishing some neat and also mixed into a Daiquiri this time last year?) and I can say that the differences in taste that I found were consistent with oxidation, ie: a loss of floral and citrus top notes and a relatively heavier base note. It was still clearly identifiable as Bacardi Superior,a product that I taste every day, it just wasn't fresh. Like Ian, I have also tasted Bacardi from all three current distilleries and the only difference I have found was consistent with the effect of the variations in abv.

On the question of freshness, the Maestros say that when they match their blends to a library of back samples for consistency and quality control, they only go back as far as two years to absolutely avoid any rick of even the slightest deterioration.

As Ian said, we are auctioning a bottle of Bacardi from the 1920s at our Spirit of the Age of Elegance event tomorrow night. I will no doubt be inspired to bid on it. If I win it I will happily arrange a session we where can taste it side by side with the new limited edition Daiquiri Heritage bottle which is similarly bottled at 44.5%.

David

[angusw]

I so want to quote Mandy Rice Davies now...

So I assume that Bacardi has unoxidised samples dating back from Don Facundo so that you can flavour against this in order to make such a claim?

But anyway... are you are saying that the production processes now produce a completely identical product (ABV excepted) at all three Distilleries and that this product is identical in taste to all Bacardi Silver/Carta Blanca/ Superior ever produced?

And what about the Indian and Spanish facilities? And actually where else do you make it these days?

aw

ps and I assuming this is Mr Paskins.

[pt2020]

out of a bit of Bacardi curiosity...

presumably the location of the fermentation has changed over the years, has the medium in which the ferment takes places also changed? Of most interest is the temperature at which the fermentation occurs - is this strictly controlled? And has that always been the case? and if so... what is it?

it would be awesome if someone could let me know,

owww go on, or Sancho will have to saddle up the donkey again...

Nick

[drinkspinner]

Hi Angus,

yes it is me.

Re: unoxidised samples, no we don't have them dating all the way back. That's why the Maestros only check their blends against samples going back up to 2 years or so, but this is how the blending process has been achieved since Don Facundo's day, hence my point about an unbroken line.

Since the distillery in the Bahamas was closed last year, we now produce in Puerto Rico, Mexico and India only. The Indian distillery is small and serves only the Indian market. All the European and American stock now comes out of Puerto Rico. Production samples from all three distilleries are checked by a central QA panel both organopletically and chemically for consistency before being released for sale, so yes, they all taste the same.

To pick up Nick's point about fermentation; yes temperature is strictly controlled, I will try to get the parameters for you. The location and type or vats has changed over the 147 year history as new distilleries have been built. When the first distillery was built outside of Cuba in 1931 in Mexico significant control parameters were set up to govern the flavour profile of the molasses and the fermentation to ensure consistency. The charocal filtration and blending process enable the Maestros to eliminate any remaining variations due to local environment.

At the end of the day, the final blending process is what ensures that Superior tastes the way Don Facundo intended.

[pt2020]

To pick up Nick's point about fermentation; yes temperature is strictly controlled, I will try to get the parameters for you. The location and type or vats has changed over the 147 year history as new distilleries have been built. When the first distillery was built outside of Cuba in 1931 in Mexico significant control parameters were set up to govern the flavour profile of the molasses and the fermentation to ensure consistency. The charocal filtration and blending process enable the Maestros to eliminate any remaining variations due to local environment.

At the end of the day, the final blending process is what ensures that Superior tastes the way Don Facundo intended.

Thanks David, I'd really appreciate that,

Cheers,

Nick

[Hayds]

In the immortal words of Facundo Bacardi Mazo

Historically there really has never been nor shall there be in any country anywhere a rum like ours. Not even anything remotely like it. Those that make it elsewhere do not have at their desposal the best raw materials there are, namely the syrup of the Cuban sugar cane.

Hayds

[thebartrainer]

We have a molasses blender now!! her job is to blend the mollasses (not sure how to spell the plural) to the exact same spec every time. The range of molasses types she showed us were amazing in their variety and yet she combines them to make a historically correct blend.

You are right to point out that it is not the same as before in origin but it is the same in every other way.

Cheers

Ian

[WayneCurtis]

An interesting discussion, to which I’m arriving late, as is my custom.

I have no doubt that Bacardi has kept up its traditions from the early days. But traditions — and production methods — get tweaked. They have to. Bacardi rum is now the largest selling brand in the world. I’m having trouble believing that the methods used in the late 19th century in a bat-infested plant in Santiago are the same as those used in that gleaming plant on the harbor in San Juan. It’s just not feasible.

No company as successful as Bacardi got there by stubbornly sticking to old ways. They got there by constantly adapting — becoming more efficient, striving to improve their product, adapting to changing tastes of consumers. I have somewhere in my computer a copy of a fairly recent patent that Bacardi received for a method of accelerated spirit aging involving high-pressure steel tanks and wood chips. This does not strike me as a document of a company content to strictly adhere to the traditional ways of making rum.

Technology has changed and — as mentioned — so have the tastes of the public. And I think that’s probably the biggest driver product evolution. In this case, vodka nearly cleaned Bacardi’s clock in the 1950s, as the public (American public, at least) started chasing after a lighter, cleaner, less-liquory taste in their spirits. I’m guessing that Bacardi was smart enough to respond, distilling at higher proof than before to make their product more similar to the pure ethanol of vodka. I’m also guessing that the Bacardi we’re drinking today is more like the 1960s Bacardi than higher-cogener 1920s Bacardi. At any rate, it sure tastes that way to me — and I’ve had older Bacardi served to me without being unduly influenced by the dulcet tones of Stephen Remsberg leading me down the thorny path of disputation.

Perhaps another taste test is overdue?

[pt2020]

I have no doubt that Bacardi has kept up its traditions from the early days. But traditions — and production methods — get tweaked. They have to. Bacardi rum is now the largest selling brand in the world. I’m having trouble believing that the methods used in the late 19th century in a bat-infested plant in Santiago are the same as those used in that gleaming plant on the harbor in San Juan. It’s just not feasible.

It's not feasible, it's also not possible. I have no reason to dispute that the company are adhering to their familial traditions and mission statement. Those better qualified than I have stated that the maestros blend to the original formula, I'm very trusting like that!

However.... if nothing else as soon as you move your production, change your raw material etc. the DNA of the liquid changes. You can blend to an original Cuban flavour profile in San Juan but, for example, the hydrostatic pressure is higher so you get higher carbon content and different genetic expressions which produce higher proportions of acetate esters, which degrade differently to ethyl esters. So you can blend to a specific profile but if the DNA is different it will age very differently and at a different rate....etc etc etc. It's unavoidable, it's also not much of an issue in my opinion...

The suggestion that today's Bacardi is more akin to the 1960's model than the 1920's version would seem to be chronologically appropriate.

If anyone has access to a GCMS machine I'd guarantee you'd get very different results from samples of the rums in question - I'd also question how much it would really matter.

Nick

[rumandcokefloat]

I hear that such a tasting is already being planned by Bacardi! Hayds has been asked already.

[Tristan]

Just to add a comment or two, because it's an interesting discussion...

As far as I can see, the only way Bacardi could replicate rum from the 20's is by having un-oxidised samples dating back to then (which of course they don't). There are so many factors involved here that it is completely impossible to replicate something produced using the methods and equipment employed by the family in Santiago. Replicating the molasses for one would be a heck of a job given the intensive processing it goes through before fermentation these days.

I also have no doubt that the product evolved hugely post-Don Facundo's day up until the 20's, since Facundo Bacardi Moreau was still yet to get into his stride and nail the yeasts, aging processes and filtering.

On a side note: I tried a green and yellow Chartreuse dating back to the 1870's the other day. Clearly Chartreuse, but different too.

[thebartrainer]

Tristan,

I'm glad that you are finding the chat interesting... I've found this whole debate fascinating and it reminded me (as if that was required!) how lucky I am to be involved with the spirits category and in particular Bacardi Rum.

As to your comments I dont think that there is anything in there that hasn't been covered in detail in the previous posts so I'm not going to say any more on those subjects, however if you or anyone else in the Barboresphere wants to come along to on of our Legacia de Don Facundo Bacardi training sessions when we restart in the new year then just send me a PM and I'll figure out where the closest one will be.

Cheers

Ian